Professor Emerita Angie Hobbs of the University of Sheffield, a prominent voice in ancient Greek philosophy and author of "Why Plato Matters Now," discusses the enduring relevance of Plato's philosophical inquiries. The conversation delves into Plato's intellectual context, his relationship with Socrates, and the core tenets of his philosophy, including justice, love, the theory of forms, and his emphasis on mathematics and music.

Plato's Intellectual Landscape

Plato's philosophy emerged as a reaction to several key intellectual and political currents of his time. He critically engaged with the Sophists, itinerant teachers who prioritized rhetoric and argumentation skills over truth. For Plato, true philosophy involved collaborative truth-seeking, not deception or manipulation.

He also reacted against the materialism of pre-Socratic philosophers like Democritus, who posited that everything, including the soul and gods, was composed of material atoms. Plato found these explanations reductive, arguing they failed to address the fundamental question of "why" something exists and what its essence truly is.

Politically, Plato's upbringing during a turbulent period in Athenian history, marked by the Peloponnesian War and internal factionalism, fueled his search for social harmony and a just political order. His philosophical work aimed to preserve the legacy of his mentor, Socrates, while offering solutions to the divisions and anarchy he witnessed.

While Plato was critical of certain pre-Socratic materialists, he was deeply influenced by others. Heraclitus's concept of constant flux in the phenomenal world and Parmenides's notion of unchanging, eternal being informed Plato's own metaphysics. He sought to reconcile these seemingly opposing views, a testament to his engagement with, rather than outright rejection of, earlier philosophical traditions.

The Socratic Legacy and Plato's Voice

Distinguishing between the historical Socrates and Plato's philosophical development presents a significant scholarly challenge. Plato, born around 428/427 BCE, was deeply influenced by Socrates, who was executed in 399 BCE. In his early dialogues, Plato adopted Socrates's oral, question-and-answer methodology and his focus on fundamental ethical questions: "How should I live?" and "What sort of person should I be?"

However, as Plato matured, his philosophical scope expanded. He began to explore the necessary social and political conditions for ethical progress, leading to his interest in political theory. This, in turn, prompted inquiries into the nature of human beings and the soul, leading to psychology. His quest for knowledge then led him to epistemology and, ultimately, metaphysics, the study of reality.

While Plato consistently wrote in dialogue form, never directly in his own voice, certain ideas are attributed to him due to their repetition and consistent presentation. These include the theory of the tripartite psyche (reason, spirit, and appetites) and the concept that human flourishing and virtue lie in the harmony of these parts. Similarly, his "theory of forms," which posits that true reality exists in a transcendent realm of perfect, immutable forms, is considered a significant Platonic doctrine, at least for a period of his life.

Plato's preference for questioning over declarative statements is central to his philosophical method. He believed that true learning is an internal process, stimulated by questioning rather than passively receiving information. Teachers, in his view, should guide students toward understanding, much like turning someone "towards the light." This approach invites readers into an ongoing conversation, allowing for interpretation and reinterpretation across generations.

The Republic and the Nature of Justice

The Republic grapples with the question of justice, famously challenging the Sophist Thrasymachus's assertion that "justice is the interest of the stronger." Thrasymachus argued that rulers, regardless of their form of government, legislate in their own self-interest, and obedience to these laws merely serves the powerful. Plato, through the character of Socrates, counters this cynical view by arguing that those who define justice solely in terms of power and material wealth misunderstand human nature and well-being.

Plato posits that human beings have a tripartite soul—reason, spirit, and appetites. He contends that individuals like Thrasymachus fail to cultivate their rational element, leading to a confined and miserable existence. To explore justice more fully, Plato constructs an ideal city, a utopian model where justice can be examined on a larger scale.

While the ideal city described in the Republic exhibits authoritarian and totalitarian characteristics, including censorship and the communal raising of children, Professor Hobbs suggests that Plato may not have intended it as a literal blueprint. The dialogue's own censorship criteria would likely ban the Republic itself, hinting at Plato's ironic and playful approach. He uses this ideal city as a thought experiment to provoke discussion and debate, rather than presenting a fixed, unassailable doctrine. The Republic's ultimate aim is to answer the ethical question of whether justice is intrinsically valuable and beneficial to the individual, even when faced with the apparent success of the unjust.

Love, Desire, and the Symposium

Plato's Symposium explores the nature of erotic love, Eros, and its connection to friendship (Philia). The dialogue features a drinking party where various guests, including the playwrights Agathon and Aristophanes, and the philosopher Socrates, present their views on love.

A key speech is delivered by Diotima, a priestess-like figure (likely invented by Plato), who describes a "ladder of love." This ascent begins with physical beauty and progresses through moral beauty, knowledge, and ultimately to the Form of Beauty itself. This journey involves transcending earthly desires for a higher, more abstract form of love.

The dialogue concludes with the dramatic entrance of Alcibiades, a charismatic but dissolute Athenian statesman. Drunk and boastful, he recounts his failed attempts to seduce Socrates, highlighting Socrates's philosophical resistance. The decision to end the dialogue with Alcibiades's speech, rather than Diotima's more abstract account, is seen as a deliberate choice by Plato. It raises questions about the practicality and demands of Diotima's ascent, the potential consequences of failing to pursue it (as exemplified by Alcibiades's life), or perhaps suggesting that neither Socrates nor Alcibiades holds the complete answer, leaving the reader to formulate their own philosophy of love.

The Symposium also touches upon the myth of human origins, where Aristophanes suggests that humans were originally three-gendered and split by Zeus, leading to a perpetual search for one's "other half." Diotima refutes this, arguing that humans yearn not for their missing half, but for the good. The dialogue's exploration of homosexuality and its potential connection to gender ideology led to its temporary ban from being taught at Texas A&M University, highlighting the ongoing relevance and controversy surrounding its themes.

Plato would likely view modern dating apps as keeping individuals fixated on the first rung of the ladder of love—physical attributes—and potentially exposing them to deception. He would advocate for caution, verification of truth, and a broader pursuit of love beyond mere sexual satisfaction, recognizing Eros as a force for moral and intellectual growth.

The Theory of Forms and Ethics

Plato's theory of forms addresses his profound desire for knowledge to exist. Observing the constant flux of the sensory world, he concluded that it could only be an object of belief, not true knowledge. To establish a foundation for knowledge, Plato posited a transcendent realm of eternal, unchanging, and perfect Forms, such as the Form of Beauty, Goodness, and Justice.

While Plato believed his ethics and politics were anchored in these Forms, particularly the Form of the Good, Professor Hobbs argues that a framework for ethics and politics can still be derived from his emphasis on flourishing and virtue, even without belief in the Forms. This approach focuses on the questions "How should I live?" and "What sort of person should I be?" aiming for a life of flourishing, understood as the fulfillment of one's potential across rational, emotional, and physical faculties. This perspective emphasizes agency and moral responsibility, even in challenging circumstances.

Hobbs offers a more individualized interpretation of flourishing than Plato's potentially authoritarian hierarchy, suggesting that the picture of flourishing will vary based on individual capacities and circumstances. She notes that Plato himself revised his ideas in later dialogues, demonstrating a capacity for self-scrutiny and intellectual growth.

Mathematics, Music, and Universal Principles

Plato's fascination with mathematics and music stems from his encounter with Pythagorean communities in southern Italy around 387 BCE. He was struck by the realization that music, a beautiful art form, could be precisely notated and understood through mathematical ratios and proportions. This led him to hypothesize that other aspects of reality, including the human psyche and the cosmos, might also be governed by mathematical principles.

This pursuit of mathematical perfection and harmony influenced his philosophy, linking Forms to numbers and ratios. Plato believed that mathematics offered a path to understanding universal, unchanging truths, a stark contrast to the mutable world perceived by the senses. His public lectures at the Academy, reportedly focused on mathematics, disappointed Athenians seeking simple rules for living, underscoring his commitment to rigorous intellectual inquiry.

Nietzsche, Christianity, and Plato's Legacy

Friedrich Nietzsche famously described Plato as "boring," viewing him, along with Christianity and Kant, as a "life denier" who sought reality in other realms rather than embracing this world. Nietzsche championed Homer and the pre-Socratics as proponents of a life-affirming philosophy. However, Nietzsche's own complex literary style, employing irony and multiple personas, shares a methodological kinship with Plato's dialogues, which also require active interpretation from the reader.

Plato's influence on Christianity is significant. Early Christians saw Plato as a precursor, particularly in his emphasis on ascending to a higher realm and his rejection of the ethics of revenge. The Socratic and Platonic principle that the good person does not return wrong for wrong resonates with the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount.

However, Plato's Form of Beauty is impersonal, unlike the Christian God who reciprocates love. While figures like Augustine and Ficino attempted to reconcile Platonic philosophy with Christianity, Plato's ideas were adapted and sometimes transformed. Crucially, the preservation of Plato's texts throughout history owes much to Christian, Jewish, and Islamic scholars, facilitating a rich tradition of interfaith philosophical dialogue.

The Enduring Relevance of Plato

Professor Hobbs emphasizes that while textual scholarship aims to ascertain Plato's original writings, the enduring power of his philosophy lies in how each generation and culture interprets his work. Plato's richness and the breadth of his inquiries ensure that he continues to matter, offering insights relevant to contemporary challenges. His dialogues invite readers to engage in critical thinking, to question their own beliefs, and to pursue a deeper understanding of fundamental questions about life, justice, and reality.

Hobbs is currently working on a book exploring heroes and heroism from a philosophical perspective, building on her previous work, including "Why Plato Matters Now," which delves into heroes, heroism, celebrity, and the distinction between being a hero and a celebrity.