Author Michael Lewis discusses his latest book, "The Government: A User's Guide," with Gavin Newsom, exploring the motivations behind public service, the challenges faced by civil servants, and the impact of political shifts on government operations. Lewis draws parallels between his reporting and the dynamics of public service, emphasizing the importance of understanding and valuing the work of government employees.

The Genesis of "Blockers"

Lewis explains that his initial inspiration for exploring the federal government stemmed from a desire to understand the political landscape after a significant electoral defeat. He sought to engage with individuals from across the political spectrum, including figures like Steve Bannon and Charlie Kirk, to gain insight into their motivations and strategies. This approach, he notes, was a departure from the adversarial nature of cable news, aiming instead for a deeper understanding of individuals and their perspectives.

His relationship with Steve Bannon dates back to the 1980s when Bannon, then in his Hollywood phase, purchased the film rights to Lewis's first book, "Liars Poker." Bannon's subsequent attempt to write a screenplay for the book marked the beginning of their connection. Lewis emphasizes the importance of having these conversations, even with those holding opposing views, to foster understanding.

The Art of Subject Engagement

Lewis likens his approach to interviewing subjects to the fable of the North Wind and the Sun, where the sun's warmth, rather than the wind's force, persuades the traveler to remove his cloak. He believes in creating a comfortable environment to encourage subjects to open up. This method, he acknowledges, has sometimes led to subjects feeling "violated" by the intimacy of the portrayal, even if the facts are accurate. He recounts an anecdote where Billy Beane, the subject of "Moneyball," was more concerned about his mother's reaction to the book than the broader implications for baseball.

The process of writing involves extensive observation and filtering. Lewis initially refrains from taking notes, allowing subjects to relax. As trust builds, he begins to record information, a process that inherently filters out less interesting material. He emphasizes that his goal is not to "take down" subjects but to understand their motivations and humanity.

The Trump Administration and the "Deep State"

Lewis contrasts the Trump administration's approach to government in its first and second terms. In "Trump 1.0," he describes a sense of neglect and ignorance, where the administration seemed unprepared for the complexities of governing. In "Trump 2.0," however, he characterizes the approach as a deliberate effort to "destroy" and "reorganize" the federal government to serve Donald Trump's personal interests.

He frames the federal government's functions into abstract categories such as refereeing, public safety, science, information, and trusted institutions. He argues that under a "king," these functions would be carried out differently, prioritizing loyalty to the individual over societal needs. This shift, he contends, leads to a government that is opaque to itself, with data being weaponized against perceived enemies and suppressed if it reflects poorly on the administration.

The "Blockers" and the War on Expertise

Lewis introduces the concept of "blockers" as individuals who resist actions that are unlawful or against their understanding of their job. He contrasts this with Elon Musk's use of the term to describe those who impede progress. Lewis's book profiles individuals who, by adhering to the law and their oaths to the Constitution, become obstacles to the administration's agenda.

He highlights the case of Kathleen Walters, an IRS privacy officer who refused to share sensitive taxpayer data with the Department of Homeland Security, ultimately costing her job. This act, Lewis argues, is a direct betrayal of trust, akin to the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II, but with the added element of illegality.

The Science of Fire and the Erosion of Trust

The book also delves into the work of Alex Marenites, a fire scientist at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). Marenites' research on wildfire behavior, particularly the role of embers in igniting structures, challenged conventional firefighting strategies. Lewis portrays Marenites as a dedicated public servant whose work was hampered by the administration's cuts to research funding and its general disregard for scientific expertise.

Lewis connects this to the broader theme of the politicization of government institutions, citing Ronald Reagan's decision to make the head of the CDC a political appointee rather than a career professional. This, he suggests, has led to a decline in the CDC's ability to respond effectively to public health crises.

The Cruelty of Power

A recurring theme in Lewis's discussion is the "cruelty" inherent in the current political climate. He references a quote from Orwell's "1984," suggesting that true power lies in the ability to inflict suffering. He points to Russell Vought, former Director of the Office of Management and Budget, as an example of this cruelty, particularly in his alleged role in blocking scientific research, even impacting his own child's treatment for cystic fibrosis. Vought's stated goal of "traumatizing the federal worker" exemplifies this theme.

The Importance of "Referees"

Lewis emphasizes the critical role of "referees" – individuals who ensure fairness and neutrality within government institutions. He uses the character of Tim Curry, a neutral negotiator at the Office of Personnel Management (OPM), to illustrate this point. Curry's dedication to impartiality, even in the face of immense pressure, highlights the value of trusted arbiters. Lewis argues that the erosion of trust in these referees leads to a cynical environment where "every man for himself."

The Hopeful Ending

Despite the bleak picture painted by the administration's actions, Lewis concludes with a note of hope. He introduces Sahil Levvenia, a young tech entrepreneur who joins the administration with the goal of improving the IRS's digital services. Levvenia's eventual disillusionment with the bureaucracy and his subsequent commitment to public service, symbolized by his quest to fix a broken water fountain, represent the enduring spirit of those dedicated to making a difference. Lewis believes that this spirit, even in unexpected places, is crucial for preserving a healthy society.